March 10, 2020

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome at Work with Dr. Lisa Orbé-Austin

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome at Work with Dr. Lisa Orbé-Austin

Learn how your workplace my by exacerbating your imposter syndrome 😮

In this episode you'll learn:⁠

1️⃣What imposter syndrome is (and isn’t) and how it appears.⁠

2️⃣Why your perfectionism may be a guise for imposter syndrome⁠

3️⃣How certain managers may unwittingly trigger imposter syndrome⁠

4️⃣What to look for when interviewing with companies that may exacerbate your imposter syndrome.⁠

AND SO MUCH MORE...⁠

Dr. Lisa Orbé-Austin is a licensed psychologist and executive coach, with a focus on career advancement, leadership development and job transitions. She is a co-founder and partner of Dynamic Transitions Psychological Consulting, a career and executive coaching consultancy, where she works mostly with high potential  managers and executives. She earned her doctorate in Counseling Psychology from Columbia University, Teachers College. Her views about career advancement, job transitions, leadership, and diversity & inclusion are regularly sought by the media and she has appeared in outlets such as The New York Times, NBC News, Forbes, The Huffington Post, Refinery29, Business Insider, and Insight Into Diversity.  ⁠

Her book, Own Your Greatness: Overcome Impostor Syndrome, Beat Self-Doubt, and Succeed in Life (Ulysses Press, 2020) coauthored with her partner, Dr. Richard Orbé-Austin, will be released in April 2020. ⁠

Connect with Dr. Lisa:

Website: http://www.dynamictransitionsllp.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaorbeaustin/
Instagram: instagram.com/drorbeaustin

Connect with Laura Khalil online:

instagram.com/forceofbadassery
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BraveByDesign/
linkedIn.com/in/LauraKhalil
Invite Laura to speak at your event http://laurakhalilspeaker.com/speak


Support the show (https://www.paypal.me/bravebydesign)

Transcript

spk_0:   0:01
Episode nine on Overcoming Imposter syndrome At work with Lisa or Bay Austin Welcome to Brave by design I'm your host, LL Oracle, Ill. I'm an entrepreneur, coach and speaker. I love thinking Bake. Exploring the power of personal development, Ensuring the best strategies from thought leaders and pioneers and business to empower ambitious women and allies to bravely rise and thrive. Let's get started. Hi, friends. Welcome to break by design. It is me, your host LL Oracle, Ill. I have a great discussion on today's episode with Lisa or Bay Austin, where we talk all about the very surprising ways in which your workplace maybe promoting or aggravating your imposter syndrome. It's just fascinating. I really, really I love this discussion. You're gonna get so much value out of it. So stay tuned for that. A couple of things I want to mention before we get to the show. First, I want to give a huge shout out to all of the folks who have gone on Apple podcasts and given this show five stars. As you know, we have been alive, so to speak is a podcast for about two and 1/2 months. That's not a long time. But because of your listenership, this show is in the top 90th percentile of new shows. Is that exciting? So I want to give a shout out on Read a couple of these amazing reviews. We've received this one. So on point by Audra Rally, she writes, I had the pleasure of listening to Laura speaking an event last year about imposter syndrome. Since then, I have been a follower of her work, and this podcast is just the latest of her great contributions. I was hooked on the first episode, finally, a podcast that incorporates all the challenges of being a professional woman. Living and working in a white, heteronormative patriarchal society. She uses laughter along with serious analysis in her podcasts, making it fun and easy to listen to. The topics are so on point, and her guests offer great expertise and insight. I feel like I found my tribe and I'm looking forward to more episodes. Oh my God! Ra Oh, good. A cry so sweet. Ah, and this other review we received from a B perspective, she writes, get ready to take notes and do the work. Laura is a powerhouse. She shares such thoughtful and empowering advice. Through this podcast and her Facebook community, she hosts a variety of guests, and each person brings great knowledge and perspective to the table. Thank you for being intentional, direct and real. Laura next step is up to us. Do the work. Ain't that the truth? Girlfriend? Um, I know who a B perspective is. She has been active in our Facebook group, and it is really a great place for people to get breakthroughs. Okay, so if you're not in the Facebook group, what on earth are you waiting for? Every Tuesday, our episodes come out every Wednesday at noon. Eastern. I host a live after show talking about the episode, talking about my impressions, and it's also a chance for you to engage with me. It's how I really want to give back to the community. It's also where I talk about our inspired action of the week and give you that to do if you choose to take it on. So let me talk about this week's inspired action of the week. I want to start by saying Yes, it is weird to read reviews of yourself out loud. Okay, so I just want to acknowledge that is a little bit weird. But this week are inspired. Action is about bragging. And I know someone just heard me say that they're like, Oh, my God, she did not just say that I did. Um, and here's the reason why I want to talk to you about something I posted actually unlinked in the other day about this because a lot of people have this notion or idea about staying humble. And if you are one of these people, I would like to tell you or suggest that the people who need to stay humble are not the people who say they need to stay humble. It's kind of like with imposter syndrome, as you're gonna learn in this episode, the people who suffer from Imposter Center are not the actual imposters. Okay, so let me explain a little bit more about what I mean by bragging what I mean by not staying humble because I know that can kind of feel, um, like a jarring thing to hear. Okay, here's what I wrote on Lincoln. And if you're not following me on Lincoln, jump on over there, I'll put a link in the show notes. I said, Please ask yourself how your of any use to anyone if you hide your gifts from us by quote unquote staying humble. No one is suggesting you become a cocky jerk, but I am suggesting you get as comfortable talking about your strengths as you are pointing out your weaknesses. Do you feel me on this, guys? Because most of the people who talk about staying humble are the folks who are really suffering from imposter syndrome. This is a beautiful Segway. In today's episode, how many of you are so quick to say, Oh, I'm not good at that or Oh, no, no, no, I could never do that. I'm not good enough. I'm not ready. I don't have enough experience. I don't have enough clients under my belt. I don't have enough years, whatever it may be, and you are so quick to diminish or minimize any of your strengths. So when I talk about bragging, I'm not talking about making things up, uh, half truths, things that are false. I'm just saying this week your inspired action, if you so choose to take it, is to let people know about the strengths you have and the accomplishments you have made in a factual manner as a counterpoint to us always being so quick to point out our weaknesses. When you can become as comfortable talking about your strengths as you are pointing out your weaknesses, then you're balanced individual. No problem. Okay, that's actually humility is saying, Hey, I have some good stuff and I got some lousy stuff, Okay, But on Li pointing out the bad stuff. First of all, why would anyone want to work with you? Um, if you are always minimizing yourself, I don't trust you. I don't think you can do the job. I'm afraid you can't. I might need to micromanage you. I might need to look over your shoulder. Second of all, I believe that every single individual on this planet is either born with or learns innate talents and gifts along the way. And if you are hiding your gifts from us by staying humble, you are doing nobody a favor, okay? It's actually one of the most selfish things you can do. Believe it or not. All right, so that's the inspired action. Head on Over to the brave by design Facebook group. We're gonna talk more about it this week. And without further ado, let's get on to this week's episode with Lisa or Bay Austin. Everyone, I am so excited on this episode to talk all about imposter syndrome with our amazing guest. I found her unlinked in, and I have not stopped following her stuff. Her name is Doctor Lisa or Bay Austin. She is a licensed psychologist and executive coach with a focus on career advancement, leadership development and job transitions. She is a co founder and partner of dynamic transitions, Psychological Consulting, a career and executive coaching consultancy where she motor works mostly with high potential managers and executives. She earned her doc doctorate in counselling psychology from Columbia University Teacher's College. Her views about career advancement, job transitions, leadership and diversity and inclusion are regularly sought by the media, and she has appeared in outlets such as The New York Times, NBC News, Forbes Huffingtonpost, Refinery 29 Business Insider and Insight Into University. Holy Shit. Her book Own Your Greatness. Overcome Imposter Syndrome, Beat Self Doubt and Succeed in Life, being published by Ulysses Press and co authored with her partner Dr Richard or Bay Austin will be released in April. 2020 0 my gosh, I That was awesome. Well, you know, I'm so excited to have you here as I started off by saying, I've been following your stuff on Lincoln, and I was just, like, totally blown away by what you were posting. And I knew we had to have you on this show because people our, um they think that people like you and I have don't have imposter syndrome, and I think that's really funny. Is it like, Well, actually, guys and, um so I wanted to. Well, first of all, I wanted to ask you, Can we just let's define what is imposter syndrome? Sure. So imposter syndrome

spk_1:   9:27
is the experience often felt by people who have, you know, are highly successful, have achievements, have successes, have credentials. But they constantly feel like they're fraud, that they got all those things either from overworking from, you know, the benevolence of some other person, or by mistake or luck. And so they constantly overworked to show that they are not a fraud. Any mistake they make is oftentimes feeling it feels like evidence of their fraudulence. And could be there is That's why they sort of protect against making mistakes, because that's that's sort of a rebel. It feels like it's a revelation to others that they are a fraud. So this sort of prevalent feeling of that they're fraudulent, that, um, that they're incompetent, that there truly undeserving of all the success and achievements that sort of pervades their life.

spk_0:   10:16
What I find so fascinating about imposter syndrome is that the people who often suffer from it are not

spk_1:   10:23
the imposters. You're paradox in it. Yes,

spk_0:   10:26
you're the opposite of a nimrod. Yes, exactly. It's funny, cause sometimes

spk_1:   10:32
when people ask me about the book initially they don't understand the concept of imposter syndrome. Oh, so you write about those people who like, um, catch me if you can Guy that has a secret identity is not like, No, it's exactly the opposite of that.

spk_0:   10:46
It's you or I, or anyone who's ever felt like I. I often equate imposter syndrome. If you've ever met someone who said, Oh, I just got lucky or, you know it wouldn't have happened without so and so, And it's kind of like you're minimizing yourself. Yes, exactly. Yep, moments. So I really want to ask you. I know that a lot of imposter syndrome begins in childhood. And, you know, as I was preparing for this episode, I was thinking about my own imposter syndrome and some of the places where that started. Um, and I know I was a very high performing, classically trained flutist. A lot of people don't know that. And so, yeah, I grew up playing the flute, and I was very gifted at it. I'm not ashamed to say that. And I ascended very quickly through, you know, middle school in high school and all that stuff and did all the competitions and traveling and whatever. But when you have to always feel like you have to be at the top, Yeah, and you can never show any weakness. And you have to be the best. Um, I know that that is one of the things that you talk about where we begin to the seeds of imposter syndrome begin to land because you don't feel like the best. You know, there's people better than you where there's people worse than you. And, you know, that's just kind of how the cookie crumbles. But can you talk a little bit about some of these seeds of where imposter syndrome starts to get planted in us. Sure. And I think

spk_1:   12:22
what the PC you're referring to there is is this underlying kind of perfectionism that often exists for people who are are who have imposter syndrome. Is this constant need to feel perfect? Especially in, um, in an experience like being a flout, its like that. You know, it's about precision, about perfection, about representing peace in a very particular way, like making mistakes isn't seen as like, like appropriate to advancement or those

spk_0:   12:46
guys you can't you can't mess up. No, you

spk_1:   12:49
can't. Cause then, you know, then probably you know, it's brought to your attention. All

spk_0:   12:54
right, so, like, Oh, great, you're going to give you even

spk_1:   12:56
better next time. Um so I think especially like that perfectionistic tendencies is under underlies a lot of imposter syndrome. But what? One of the things we talk about often times does that in research, there's there's typically we found two developmental patterns, and then my husband and I were in the book thought about 1/3 pattern that really hasn't talked a lot about the research. But the 1st 2 patterns that exist in early childhood is one you were. Stephen is the smart one or the capable one or the skilled one. Whatever it is, that was the particular domain, where you feel the impostor syndrome, Um, that you were considered, like, naturally gifted and as a result of being naturally gifted, the ideas of people who are naturally gifted don't have to work. It just comes easy to them, right? So that's one of the underlying earlier childhood experiences. The other one is that you were considered the one who works hard, so you weren't naturally gifted. You weren't considered naturally talented or naturally intelligent. You were considered like you get so where you get because you know howto work card on what's interesting. It clearly about those two perspectives is, um, you're probably both at all times, but people have very hard times being able to understand that you could be naturally talented and still need to work hard that those those things must that they typically go together. Um, that there they are not mutually exclusive, although we often perceive them as such. And the third type is which we just not talked a lot about in the research literature, but I think we've seen it. A lot in our practice is people who have had to survive. So people who weren't, like, thought of as either the naturally gifted one or the one who works hard. But the different didn't really have a lot of adults. Supporter adult, um, you know, kind of voices around them. They just had to survive. So they learned how to kind of be successful in order to kind of make it on DSO. They don't perceive themselves either one of those lights. They just know how to survive. Um, and that the survival often depended on how excellent they weren't certain things. And so it didn't feel like a moment of like, like praise and heralding how great you are. Just like, Okay, I got to the next place. I'm gonna be okay. And if they did make a mistake, often it could be catastrophic because they were. They had very little support underneath them.

spk_0:   15:02
Wow. And so continuing into adulthood, they still feel even if they are managers, director, executive

spk_1:   15:10
suite. I've seen it in all these kinds of places. Yes, that they could. They could have been had multiple seeding sweet rolls and still feel like if I make one mistake, it's gonna all fall apart, even though clearly that's not even remotely possible.

spk_0:   15:22
So for folks who are experiencing imposter syndrome and also let's talk about one thing quickly, Uh, I think a lot of people think imposter syndrome happens primarily to women. But I don't think that's entirely what the research shows. Can you tell us? Does it happen for both men and women?

spk_1:   15:40
Yes. And, um, the research shows a lot of it's not been consistent. So in some places, it showed women have it Maurin someplace they showed It's mixed, but

spk_0:   15:50
I think it gets

spk_1:   15:50
confused that, you know, the only people that have it our women is because this started with with the evaluation in the research of women. So two psychologists named, um, clans and IMEs discovered this kind of phenomenon in the 19 seventies, working in a college primarily with women, Um, and so they they initially thought it only existed with women, but they're seeing it equally, both in men and women. They sometimes say that it can show up a little differently in them than it does in women. So maybe that's why initially, it wasn't sort of scene. I think what the research finds is that men sometimes, um, find themselves rather than reaching to the next echelon. They they will. They prefer competence and mastery. So they will stay at one or two rungs below where they probably should be, in order to kind of feel like they're they're kind of mastering the situation and that where women take greater risks on dhe will put themselves out there, even if they are constantly plagued by the feeling of fraudulence.

spk_0:   16:48
That is really fascinating. And so one thing I want to ask you, because this is such a It's such a juicy topic. And it's such a topic that I think people are afraid to sort of confront and deal with. I want to know, Can you tell us why is this so important to you? How did this research, um, become the thing that you really wanted? Thio, you know, put a stake in the ground on and look into

spk_1:   17:15
because I had it myself. Um and because it kind of overcoming it changed my life. Um And so, um, I'll tell you, like the moments that sort of shifted shifted for me. So I was probably a couple years out of my PhD program. Um, and I had been plagued with imposter syndrome throughout my entire probably educational career period. But definitely in graduate school when I was, you know, classmates of people who went to Harvard and Berkeley. And and it just felt like I you know, I didn't belong here. That it had been some mistake that I have been admitted. And I always felt like eventually we're gonna find out, Um, that

spk_0:   17:52
feeling of finding out, Yeah. I'm going to get caught. Yep. And even when I Even

spk_1:   17:58
when I graduated, I I would still feel like I would get a call from, like, Columbia. And it would be like one of these, like, you know, fundraising calls. And I would think that when I listen to the voice Mother, they're gonna say, Oh, we found a mistake in your dissertation and we're going to have to rescind your PhD. I would fear it like constantly, probably for the first couple of years. And I as a result, I was in this really awful job. Um, that had nothing to do with my doctor and I had just fallen into it. I wasn't sort of directing my own career. Um, and I have this really awful boss, um, and he was sort of taking advantage of. He inherently probably knew, like, unconsciously, that I had imposter syndrome, and he was just taking advantage of it. So he drove me really hard. He was constantly withholding appraise. He, um, would embarrass me. Very public, Clea usually shaming me, do we're like, um, wasn't capable of understanding. Um, he was very, like, publicly humiliating. And I took it for, like, a good, like, 6 30 you know, six or eight months, um, and then I was in, and I have been talking to my husband like, I can't believe this job. And he was like, leave, leave, leave. And I just couldn't leave. I felt so stuck. Um, and then he it was in a meeting. Um, of all the senior leaders of the team, they were all women. And there was music playing in the background, his office, and somebody asked, you know, what is this music that's playing? And he said it's music to soothe the savage breast. What? And in that one moment I was like, I can't do this to myself anymore. Like I am now participating in him, like referring to me as a beast. And that's that is arrest rate. Yeah. Um And so I sat through the meeting, and as soon as I got out of that meeting, I stormed into my office. I called my husband, was like, I'm going to quit, like, immediately. He was like, Cool it. Um, so I packed up my office. Um, that weekend, Um, And on Monday, I brought my key. I walked in with just my keys. I clean my computer and everything, and I went to his office and I said, I'm quitting. No notice, No nothing. That was it. And the first he, like, cried and got emotional and was like, You can't do this to me. The money for your salaries encumbered which in grant terms means that you can't use it for anything else. Um and I was, like, look exactly like I don't care. And then when he realized I wasn't budging, then he started to threaten me, and he said, Like, you'll never work in education. Can you do this? And you could forget about your reputation. So it's like all the fears

spk_0:   20:24
popping up, Everything popping us. Yeah, and I still did

spk_1:   20:28
it. And like I walked out of that office and I went home. I don't even remember the period of like leaving his office and going home. It just like I blacked out, I think. And then I went home and had, like, a panic attack was like, What was I thinking? And, um and so But it changed my life because in that point, my husband was like, Okay, to take this energy and do something for yourself He told me, He said to me a line that I will never forget. It has become the mantra of what I do, which is which is that if you can take if you can, If you can work the way you work for others for yourself, you're going to be unstoppable. It was like take all that energy that you put into other people of their evaluation and put it to yourself and develop the practice. And that was the beginning of our practice. Ts I took that period right after to develop the pack to the administrative work for the practice to study for my licensing exam to do all these things for myself. I had put on hold and started the practice in the fall of that year. That was in spring was in the fall of that year. It just changed my life. And as a result, I have this amazing practice that I love that gets to save imposters every day. It's just this. It's this this gift, Um, and it came from doing with my impossible.

spk_0:   21:34
That's incredible. That is incredible. And, you know, it's funny. I get I have, like, shivers hearing that, and I hope that our audience really heard that because you felt stuck and trapped. And so I want a transition to, um, an article that you recently wrote that really talks more about that, um, this article, the impostor syndrome, triggering workplace Guys, if you're listening to this, find Lisa on Lincoln and I'm gonna put a link to it in than show notes in this article, you say while your imposter syndrome can be triggered by a high profile assignment or a new accomplishment, particular work environments conservative breeding ground for imposter syndrome and these workplaces can feel very difficult to leave. You continue and say, sometimes it's not the entire workplace culture, but a boss who draws you in to feeling a heightened sense of fraudulence. And I'd love for you to share with the audience. What does that manager look like for people who are listening? What May that What do they need to be looking for? How me that appeared to them?

spk_1:   22:43
Yeah, So I mean, if you know 11 of the things a lot of people say with imposter syndrome is it's It's got me to where I have been, you know, it's it's what's made me successful

spk_0:   22:50
and with a decent, good

spk_1:   22:51
boss, you can, you know, kind of succeed because you're just always working so hard working like the amount of more than one person. But I think with a bat with a B, with one of these imposter triggering kind of bosses or work environments, they these sense this in you. They sense the insecurity. They sense the need for validation. They sense, um, that you're going to work far beyond what anyone else is capable of in order to prove yourself, and they use it so they use it to kind of like and they don't give you. They don't give you a consistent positive feedback. They're usually they'll give you, you know, positive back once in a very blue moon. But most of it is kind of critical. They tend to kind of sometimes, you know, be the kind of withholding boss that doesn't give much, but expects a lot. And you feel you constantly to prove yourself to They have very poor boundaries between personal and work life that they want. You, in essence, devote most of your your energy towards your work life. Um, they're just very capable of manipulating the impostor syndrome. So I think a lot of the research talks about our own individual responsibility and dealing with a monster syndrome. And I truly believe that, you know, our book is largely about how do you deal with this yourself? But I also believe that a lot of this gets exacerbated by certain workplace contexts that we've

spk_0:   24:03
come to think

spk_1:   24:04
are normal but are completely unhealthy and that our some way prime ing the development or the exacerbation of the impostor syndrome

spk_0:   24:12
and the managers do you think they know what they're doing? I

spk_1:   24:17
think some of them do. And I think some of them don't think. I think it's a large the unconscious process for them, like they just know that you know, they're not happy with your work product and that you're not working. They just start kind of like they just think this is this normal, I think managerial behavior to motivate you, but it's completely unhealthy, and they often benefit from it. So when you're working, like for two people, they're getting an extra person on their team and not having to pay for it. They're benefiting from from the way that your imposter syndrome functions. And I think a piece of them is keyed into that, Um, because you're usually not the only one you know who is also struggling with us in their system because they know how they know howto higher recruit this kind of person

spk_0:   24:58
who just is over the top. Yes. Ah, hard worker. Probably type, eh?

spk_1:   25:04
Yeah. You know, going, going journalistic, high achiever. Yeah, like the kind of person when you ask them, like, what is your weakness? And then they say I'm a workaholic, like that's the thing that they love you never

spk_0:   25:14
hired. You're exactly You're on the team. Yeah, and for the so this. You know, it's kind of funny, because when I hear you talking about this, I just wonder if these managers also really suffer from Imposter syndrome. It's possible, like if they also feel that they need to work so hard and they blur work, life, work, profession, work, life, boundaries because they always feel like they're not catching up. Who knows? Yeah, it's possible. Totally. So it's a good thing to

spk_1:   25:46
remember, right, because you could accidentally then also perpetrate. You know, your imposter syndrome on your direct reports if you're not conscious of the way that you work, right, because the other thing about imposter syndrome is that, you know, because you're perfectionistic when you when you have reports like direct reports, Oftentimes you like, are concerned about their performance because it reflects on you. It's oftentimes you micromanage them. You get involved in ways that aren't helping awful for their development, So you can also turn this on someone else. So you do want to be conscious of how it's playing.

spk_0:   26:18
Mmm. Now if I have a manager who I sense has some poor boundaries or is, um, you know, more interested in providing critical feedback instead of constructive feedback or kind of knows how to who knows what those triggers are, too, you know, get me going, so to speak. What? What can the employees do in that situation? What would you recommend? Well, I mean, I think the 1st 1 of the

spk_1:   26:49
things that I think is the easiest to do is to start to kind of gain back your power. So kind of like what my husband said about sort of taking that that effort that you're putting towards the work and kind of putting it towards yourself and start to really work on the foundational layers of caring for yourself. So, like, bring back boundaries at work, like, have a have a regular leave time, like, you know, don't answer culture. If you can. Don't answer calls outside of work, like start to become or unavailable. Start to have things that you book after work so you can't stay later. You can't do more. I'm starting to really take care of yourself, because the what happens if imposter syndrome is you're depleting yourself so much that you don't that you need the external validation. You don't even know howto internally. Validate yourself. And so you gotta work on sort of taking care of yourself so you can begin to care about how exhausted you are and how drained you are filling your tank. So I think that's so for me, very, very fundamental. Um, I mean, I think you can think about sort of how much How much, like play or room. Do you have to kind of, um, alter the situation in some cases, Like with my boss? He was very, very powerful, and he had no interest in changing. I had I had given him. Actually, I didn't tell this part of the story, But I actually found out at one point that my counterpart was making 50% more than me and I had top. Yeah, and I confronted him on it. Um, and and he was like, you know Oh, no. Well, I'll try to do the best I can. And two weeks, I'll give you a pay raise. They never did. So I was trying to make interventions, and he just wasn't responding to me. Um And so in those cases, like, I'm a very big believer And like, you know, in this particular work environment where, you know, organizations are necessarily loyalty, You're not gonna get the gold watch at the end of 40 years anymore. Um, use your autonomy toe to test your value in the marketplace like they think about what other options you have. You could all often make more money switching to another role, you know, somewhere else taken. And you this time you're gonna look very carefully at what kind of manager Get your gonna evaluate that. Just be happy to have a job. But really take the power in your own hands to think about what you can do, what changes you can make. Start with yourself and caring for your cell.

spk_0:   28:53
You said something there that I really just want to touch on. You said you talked about we we can develop sort of an addiction. So to speak to this external affirmation or praise, you know, I can't give it to ourselves, and it creates, like, this vicious cycle where you're craving it. Yet from this, you know, a person who really is never going to give it to you in a way that you need it you can only give that

spk_1:   29:21
to yourself. Yeah. Yep. And I think that's the That's the most dangerous piece of I think Imposter syndrome is that this could know if you don't stop it. No act The latest ever going toe to stop it for you. Like I mean, I'm telling a story. And I had an Ivy League PhD, and I still couldn't, like, get rid of it, right. You have to decide you want to change it because it no credential, no validation is ever going to stop it. You have to stop it. Um, because this could just be a cycle that you do forever throughout your entire work life. Um and so and it's it's it's very toxic. In essence, it's just attempted to drain you of everything you got. Um, so it leads to kind of things like burn out and, you know, feeling like, you know, you lose your direction in your own career because you just don't have enough energy to care. Um, and you just let things happen, you know?

spk_0:   30:10
And again, all going back to Maybe this is just how you learned to survive. Maybe because they were told you were naturally gifted. Or maybe because you were the one who always had to work hard to get anything. Yep, And so you just get into this cycle. So guys, listening to this think about those cycles. Also pick up Dr Lisa's book because, I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of research in there, and, uh, tools that people can adopt begin to use. The book is,

spk_1:   30:37
ah, workbook. Actually, it's meant to actually take you through the steps to get over your imposter syndrome. It's like a nine step process to kind of getting through imposter syndrome. It's like the things that we do with our clients that things that are found in research, the things that that we did, that I did it to get out of it, you know? So it's the process, yet

spk_0:   30:55
love it. Okay, so here's one thing I want to ask you. We talked a lot about these these types of managers. Now let's talk a little bit about okay, you're ready to level up. Maybe you have identified that this manager, it's just not working out. Maybe this the environment is supporting it. How do we look for in what are these signs of a toxic workplace. Let's say we're considering interviewing for a role. What can we look for? To say, OK, that might be a red flag. Yeah, so, I mean, I think some of those

spk_1:   31:27
things are I mean, you're gonna ask. I'm gonna add I'm gonna encourage my clients and encourage other people to ask things like

spk_0:   31:32
So what's your managerial

spk_1:   31:33
style? How do you work into in developing your director, Porter? It's like I want to hear sort of somebody's philosophy on how they manage and and how they work with their direct reports. If I don't hear a lot of stuff around their development, if I don't hear a lot of intentionality about developing direct reports, I'm a little concerned, Um, you know, because I really want a manager who really thinks about that. Like when I work with managers, I'm encouraging them to learn how to develop, you know, a developmental plan for their for their direct reports. So it's really important that they have some consciousness about the fact that their job is not to not just extract work from workers, but that they're here to also develop people over time. Career wise, I mean, I think I'm also looking for levels of toxicity in the interview process and dynamic itself. So it's just does this person like Is this person kind of being super cold to me and I can't read them? And I think, Oh, it's just because that's their style. Well, if that's their style interviewing, likely it's there also style managing. And for someone with imposter syndrome, people you can't read are not useful. Rio. You need people who communicate very openly who are very clear. We're clear with their own boundaries, but are just not like, um, just feeling manipulative in that process s so I I don't necessarily enjoy hearing from, you know, clients, other people that they couldn't read somebody, that they were confusing, that they were sort of harsh in the interview. That's to be not a good sign. It early on, um, the manager's gonna be a good development mental manager. I also look for, like, boundary violations in the course of the interview, like people who let people come in and out of the interview process, they're gonna get on a phone call in the middle of your interview, disrespectful in toxic behaviors that you see that you kind of blow off because their lives are busy. Don't blow those things off their typically signs, right?

spk_0:   33:15
What? I hear you saying Dr Lisa is remember that you guys are equal partners in this interview process. You're interviewing them yet? They're interviewing you, and this has got to be a good fit. Yes. And I think that's such an

spk_1:   33:27
important piece for people with imposter syndrome because oftentimes we're just grateful to get an opportunity. We're happy to be in the room. You've got to kind of shift that mindset. It's gotta be like, No, I I deserve to be here. I have an opportunity here, But you also need to kind of, you know, I'm not not saying this in the, you know, kind of being a little facetious, but they've gotta woo you a little bit, too. They've got to make it an exciting opportunity for you to not a one sided opportunity and because that's a bit of a sign, right? You should be happy to be here. Um,

spk_0:   33:56
absolutely. I also want to say to the audience, if you're interviewing and that company doesn't have a plan in place for how employees move through the organization or advanced like they don't do any form of leveling or they don't do any form of career advancement that's formalized within the company. Ask about that. And two, if they don't have it, be concerned because you probably are gonna be a worker bee and be driven into the ground. And then, you know, you get exhausted and move on to the next. It's like I'm telling my own personal story here. Wow. Okay, so yeah, um, completely agree. I want to encourage our audience one. Go back and listen to I think it's Episode uh, three or four on Traits of a Great Manager because we do talk a lot about what to look for in that manager, and I'm just thinking about that right now. Um, and I think that would be a great compliment if you're listening to this episode. Dr. Lisa, do you have a final piece of advice? Four folks on how to manage their own imposter syndrome

spk_1:   34:57
or overcome it? And I guess the greatest piece of advice I can give you is like, don't just let it ride like do something about it and they could change and start with yourself. Start with nurturing and caring for yourself and start to create some personal boundary with work. Um, really? You know, this is about sort of your long term commitment to your own development. Professionally and so, like, it really does. It can be changed, and they can be changed fairly quickly if you're super committed to it. Um, but commit to yourself because, like, my husband said, like, you know, if you work as hard for yourself as you do for others like, you truly could be unstoppable. I mean, it's absolutely the case.

spk_0:   35:35
I love that. And Dr Lisa, how can people stay in touch with you and find out more about the book? Sure.

spk_1:   35:41
So I Mom, you know, I'm on LinkedIn. You could follow me out, lengthen. Um, I also have a pretty active instagram. Um, so it's doctor or Bay Austin. So d you are or bay Austin. Um and, um, I'm pretty active there. Show it. Like, if I'm speaking anywhere, I'm putting it up there. I'm talking about the book and stuff like that. So that's I love. And we were putting I will have

spk_0:   36:04
links. Yes. We'll put all the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for being with us today. This you're so welcome. A rich discussion. I loved it. My pleasure. Thank you. I want to thank you for joining me. And remember to subscribe to your favorite app so you can stay up to date. And I would love your review. If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and comment on apple podcasts. You can also keep in touch with me online. You confine me on Lincoln and I'm also on instagram at force of bad ass. Sory. All that information will be available in the show notes until next time. Stay brave.