From job descriptions to onboarding, learn how to foster inclusive hiring practices.
About Karen Catlin:
After spending 25 years building software products and serving as a vice president of engineering at Macromedia and Adobe, Karen Catlin witnessed a sharp decline in the number of women working in tech. Frustrated but galvanized, she knew it was time to switch gears.
Today, Karen is a vocal advocate for inclusion, a leadership coach, a keynote speaker, and the author of Better Allies: Everyday Actions to Create Inclusive, Engaging Workplaces and The Better Allies™ Approach to Hiring.
Karen's TEDx talk "Women in Tech: The Missing Force"
Info about the Better Allies books, newsletter, and more
Karen's web site with information about coaching and speaking
Support the show (https://www.paypal.me/bravebydesign)
Episode seven on creating inclusive hiring practices with Karen Catlin Welcome to Brave by design I'm your host LL Oracle, Ill. I'm an entrepreneur, coach and speaker. I love thinking, Bake. Exploring the power of personal development and sharing the best strategies from thought leaders and pioneers and business to empower ambitious women and allies to bravely rise and thrive. Let's get started. Hey, everyone, welcome to this episode of Brave by design. I am once again so thrilled to be here with you. This is a great discussion that I have with Karen Catlin. I cannot wait for you to hear it. I want to remind you of something if you're not already aware of it. Our episodes drop every Tuesday on Wednesdays at noon Eastern. I pop into our Facebook group brave by design, and we actually chat live about the episode that you just heard. It's an incredible opportunity to meet other listeners to talk directly to me, and I absolutely love doing it. If you wanna learn more about that, you can find us on brave by design. On Facebook, you can also sign up directly at brave by design dot net. So I do hope to see you there. The second thing I want to mention is on a slightly different note, and it's about consistency. You know, I talked to a lot of people, and I work with a lot of clients who say things to me like Laura. I've been working on this, but I'm not seeing the fruits of my labor, and I'm feeling like giving up. And so when I hear that, I want to ask you two questions. One. Let's get riel. Are you really working on it every day? Consistent daily action? As anyone who knows me knows, consistent daily action is what leads to results over the long term. The second thing I want to mention is you will begin to see results over the short term, but if you have an unrealistic expectation off what those results are, you will be disappointed. So if you feel that you should be an overnight success, allow me to remind you an overnight success is 10 years in the making. I want you to, you know, congratulate every single win that you get every tiny win that you get every meeting you get, whatever it may be. Every pound lost whatever it is for you, those tiny winds stack up. But if you're expecting there to be some sudden windfall, that is the exception. It is not the rule and I want to give you a really clear example of that. So I started brave by design because I'm very passionate about these issues. It's what I go speak about it cos it's what I love to talk about. It is what you know, if you meet me in person and we start talking about courage, communication, effective communication, I just can't shut up. Right. So, hey, why don't I put it on a podcast and I started the podcast. I put it out there. I started finding some really amazing, inspiring guests that I loved and bringing them on. Now, was there some sort of major news announcement heralding my arrival on the podcast? Seen? No. Were people picking up the podcast and, you know, blogging it out to the world? No. Okay. But I kept at it consistent action every single day working towards it. And I want to tell you sometimes it takes time and you plant those seeds. It can take time for them to begin to sprout. So I want to tell you a little story about that. So here I am. I'm still doing the podcast, bringing on these incredible guests sharing what? The knowledge that I love to share because I think it's just so important. And I'm talking to a client of mine in Chicago earlier this week. Who? I haven't spoken with him since the podcast launched. And I said, Hey, look, I just want to let you know I have this podcast and they stopped me The state Laura, we know all about the podcast. And I said, Oh, okay. Did you see it on Lengthen or Instagram? And they told me that they had somebody come in for an interview. Who mentioned to them Do you know Laura Kel Ill and her podcast Brave by design guys, I almost fell out of my chair when I heard that. So I want you to know that consistent daily action leads to results, and sometimes you will not see those results immediately in front of your face. Okay, But they are happening. They are going on as long as you are consistent. So whatever you decide to d'oh, I want you to commit to it. I want you to say I'm gonna work on this a little bit every day. I'm not saying you got to devote your life to it, but work on it every day, whether it's a career goal, a fitness school, a reading goal, whatever it may be, commit 20 minutes to it every day. Everyone confined 20 minutes and you will begin to see the fruits of your labor appear over time. This is not about quick fixes if you know me. I don't believe in quick fixes. But I do believe inconsistent daily action, producing incredible results over time. Okay, Without further ado, let's dive into this episode with caring Catlin. Everyone, I am so excited on this episode. I have caring. Catlin Joining us. After spending 25 years building software products and serving as a vice president of engineering at Macromedia and Adobe, Karen Catlin witnessed a sharp decline in the number of women working in Tak. Frustrated but galvanized, she knew it was time to switch gears. Today, Karen is a vocal advocate for inclusion, a leadership coach, a keynote speaker and the author of better allies. Everyday actions to create inclusive engaging workplaces and the better allies of approached a hiring Karen. Welcome to break by design,
Laura. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on the show.
I saw your book, I saw what you were about. And I was like, I have got to reach out and learn more because this topic really hits at the core A lot of of my experiences. And I know you and I both came up in the tech sector in San Francisco. I spent many years working there, and I we didn't have these resources at that time. And I just felt that this book really resonated with some of my earlier career experiences. So I wanted us to start out by talking about what you discussing the introduction of your book. You tell this really interesting story about you and your male partner going for interviews at the same company. And can you can you share that with our audience?
Yes. Oh, it's such formative story for me and my experience. But a long time ago, my partner, Tim and I had almost identical resumes. We went to the same college, got the same degree, even work together early in our career, and so our resumes were very, very similar. And when we decided to move to Silicon Valley, we naturally were interested in the same cos we applied to the same places. And there was one day when we were being interviewed by the same company for software engineering rules. We were not competing with each other. There were they were hiring a number of people, but we were both applying for the job. Both had interviews on the same day and literally we were sitting in side by side conference rooms and someone would interview me and then walk a couple steps and go interview Tim, and vice versa. And this happened all day. Well, on the way back to her hotel room, we were kind of doing a debrief, like, How'd it go? What do you think? That type of thing and Tim said to me, that was one of the toughest interviews I've ever had. They asked such difficult questions. I think I did okay, but it was really hard, and I remember being so surprised and my reaction was like, really, because they asked me the easiest questions at number like very superficial questions. And it's not because Tim is not smart. Like I'm the smarter than Tim and or anything like that. It's like they actually lowered the bar. When they walked into an interview room to ask me questions. They asked me easier questions than Tim. So what's I know? So this is almost almost in a B test. I'm like the knots. That's right, because we had almost identical resumes on an experience. So what's interesting in your fast forward? A couple weeks? We both got job offers to the penny. The same must weigh both got job offers. But there was no way I was gonna accept mine. Because if they treated me that way during the interview process, if they didn't respect me enough to ask me those tough questions during the interview process, I could only imagine what it would be like to work there. Like what? I just get relegated to the very easy assignments. The alright,
little. But do they treat you with kid gloves? Yeah. Give the real juicy things to someone else,
right? Right. Someone else named Tim Potential. Wait
a minute. Did Tim go work there?
Uh, yes, he did. Okay,
Oh, hey, good for Tim. So that was the kick off. And do you think that those types of, um biases in interviewing are still happening today?
Unfortunately, they are. However, the good news is that so many people are understanding the value of structured interview techniques and structured interview techniques are basically approaches where you decide ahead of time. What are the questions we're going to ask? How are we gonna ask those questions and how will we evaluate the answers so that you can be very objective during this process and not subjective?
And that's one of the things I love about the book is you really do provide this sort of a dizzy approach to hiring from listing the job description and how you write it to the whole interview process and to hiring. And I want to get more into that in a second. But I want to start by asking you about this decline. You talk about it in your bio, this decline we've seen in women working in technology And why do you think that ISS?
Yes, and actually did a whole Ted X talk on it. So if people really want to spend another 20 minutes with me finding some of the details out about why I think this happened. You can go look me up on the Ted X Channel and
we can find a link to that in the
show. Perfect. Good idea. Good idea. I'll send it to you later. And but the t L d R on that is, um So I I got my computer science degree back in the mid eighties, so people who are good at math can tell how old I am now, which is fine. But that was back in the mid eighties, and there were a lot of women going into computer science. It was a new field. It seemed like it was the future. And many of us, including myself, were encouraged to go study this new field if we were good at math and problem solving and like, science. And when we got to college, most of us had very little if any programming experience. I actually went to college as a declared computer science major, and I had never touched a computer. Um, and that maybe was a little unusual, but not that unusual is just in the early eighties, when I graduate from high school's like there were now Peces there were no home computers. It wasn't that surprising that I hadn't actually touched a computer before, but two decided to major in computer science without ever having, like, written a hello world app or something like that. Like, I don't I don't know what I was thinking, but it was a good decision, and it was that the decision for me because I enjoyed it. And of course, I was able to have a great career afterwards. Using that degree and so many of my colleagues in college and early in my career, female colleagues were of the same ilk. It's like This is a great discipline to study. It's interesting, and we can go get you a nice paying jobs after after studying it now in the mid eighties and you can, according to the Department of Education, the statistics bear this out. Across the United States, about 37 38% of all the computer science and information science degrees went to women, so not 50 50 but 37 38%. That's pretty decent, and look decline happened from that point on till today. Although it's dipped down a few years ago, it's starting to rise back up. But it declined, and I think it is because we as a society here in the states, started encouraging. Our young boys, too, tinker with technology to go to robotics summer camp for after school programs to take a pee computer science. We encouraged our young boys and not so much our young girls. And what happens that And it's like, Let's say there is. You know, I think back about my former self. Like if I showed up to that first day of computer science one No. One at college and I was like, you know, 1% or 2% of the gender in that class, it was full of men. I might have had second thoughts thinking, Hey, ways to get Maybe I don't belong here. I don't see anyone who's like me. Um, and I think that's playing out in a P computer. Science classes here in the States, in those robotics after school programs in the robotics summer camps. Whatever it is, it's way see a big gender divide, and that sends a signal to young girls unless they are incredibly driven to this field like I don't belong. I'm gonna go check something else out. Um, So I think that society we haven't done a service to our or gender diversity our youth. And the other interesting thing is that this is not the same in other countries. In other countries, there are examples where computer science is much more dominated by women or 50 50. So if you look at India, engineering is a prized discipline, and it is much more gender mutual in India, in China, same thing in Turkey. There are more female computer scientists than nail computer scientists. And I hear Cuba is also in that situation. So what have we done here in the States? We have done a good job, and it's changing that one. That's the what is promising to me is that dip I mentioned is going back up.
That's incredible. It's so what I hear you saying is that prior to this sort of more recent push, let's say, in the last 25 years to get men and boys into computer science, this was more of a woman's. I don't see more of a woman's field, but more of a field where women were accepted.
Yes, And if we go back even further, Excuse me. If we go back even further in history, we can look at sort of the hidden figures. Time, Um, and the codebreakers. During World War Two, computing was more of an administrative role in some in some people's eyes of entering code into these punch cards that then got executed on computers. And so, at some point that once it was seen like, Oh, this is this is a, you know, a lucrative field and interesting field. More men started taking it over anyway. So it's it's kind of come and gone in fashion.
That is fascinating. And this actually brings me to my next question because it's something you talk about in the book off the quote unquote pipeline problem. And this is often one that we hear people bring up when they say, Oh, I can't find diverse candidates for a role because, you know, there just aren't enough minorities who are qualified to apply. And I think we all know that's not actually true. Come and tell us more about that.
I know I'm so it's easy to blame the pipeline because it seems like when you post a job, especially in these technical fields, you post a job and you get mostly male resumes. And maybe not much racial diversity at all. Um, it happens, I know. Excuse me, but I think that we don't do a service in our recruiting process or how we vet resumes or what we are demonstrating in terms of a welcoming, inclusive culture. And so that's why, in the higher the better allies approach to hiring, I do spend some time talking about What is your website look like? What pictures are you showing? You know, with all due respect, do you have a bunch of white tech? Bro's having a good time on your website? Or are you showing people doing a variety of activities who look different to to represent diversity, so imagery is important? Also, the language were using to describe benefits, making sure that the benefits that tend to be more important to two women, a cz well as members of the LGBT community, should be highlighted front center in terms of parental leave and benefits to partner same sex partners on and so forth. So making sure that that's highlighted. Um, I also share some cautionary tales there when I was doing research for the book. That's like, You know, the best practices don't use stock photography for your careers. Page Right, boys, right. Use photos of real employees. And I said, I wonder if people actually do this. So I happen to just I was trying Think I'm not going to attack. I want to just think of some other industry. My brother in law happens to work for Dow. So someone look at the Dow site on and sure enough, it took me about two seconds to code their careers page, and I see they have a post about, um, that's it. Diversity. Or it might have even been support of people of color. It was a post about what they do, the support they have for people of color. And it had a picture of a man, an African American man. And so I was like whom? I wonder if that's a stock photo and Tokyo, you can assemble the image online and do a Google search of that image. And of course, the top few hits are the stock photography sites showing that image and saying picture of smiling, happy African American male like so. And if you
want to talk about tokenism that you know that doesn't work,
it doesn't work. It doesn't work. It's not genuine on dso use photos of your real employees. And if you don't have photos if you don't have employees that exhibit, we cannot have employees that represent the diversity you're aiming for being honest about it in genuine
Karen. You also mentioned in the book where people apply where jobs are posted and where people apply. And you said some really interesting statistics I remember about, you know, if you put the job just on LinkedIn, you're going to get primarily, um, white men who apply if you use other service. Is, um I know you talk about glass door and some of the other sites, and I think you even mentioned Stack overflow a cz interesting places where you will find more diverse candidates. But one thing that I that really struck me was when you talked about having employees actually be advocates for hiring and how to do that in terms of having them go out into the field and speaking, Can you talk a little bit more about that.
Yes, and first I want to backtrack and just explain that the research that you are alluding to our mentioning I curate from other people. So I did mention successes and statistics from one company. What they saw when they posted on a variety of job sites and another company posted on Stack Overflow, which demographically is incredibly male dominated. Totally. And so they had a surprising that they actually found incredibly qualified women applying through stack overflow. So it was just a good surprise. So lesson there is post on a variety of sites measure. See what works for you. Now, the question that you just asked, though, is about I've already forgot my train of thought. Sorry, What? This
is a question about, um, one of the greatest sources of hiring diversity. And it can also be by having people go out into the community.
Yes. So, yes. So I remember this goes back a number of years, but I was doing a small consulting project for a tech company in Silicon Valley, and they wanted to improve gender diversity at their company and wanted they bring brought me on to come up with some ideas of things I could D'oh! And I took a look at their demographics, and my first reaction was a Wait a second. You're actually doing better than the industry average right now. How to do this. And the head of people was ahead of people. Head of engineering. Some, some leader told me, Oh, I know exactly how he got to this gender diversity. We have a senior woman on the engineering team who does a lot of public speaking, and so every time she goes out, speaks at a meet up for a conference. We see a big influx of resumes from women after that event, and we've hired many of thumb so cool. It's so cool. So with public speaking, even though it's not everyone's cup of tea, I'm a firm believer that when members of your team employees not just recruiters, but employees were out speaking and being very public events, they will help other people see hate. Someone like me looks successful there. Maybe I could be successful there and pursue, you know, whatever it's post on the job site or actually get that person's card and say, Can I send you my resume afterwards. It happens. It's a thing. And so that's why I really recommend that we encourage people from the underrepresented groups to have speaking opportunity first internally, if they don't have a lot of experience, get them speaking at all hands meetings or giving project updates, get them comfortable with that and get them out into more of the wider community as well. I
absolutely love that. You know, there's some statistic, um, and it says some, it's something to the effect of, you know, Onley. 10% of people are brave enough to speak in front of a naughty inst. And it's such a game changer one for your career if you're listening to be able to get in front of people and speak, and it's wonderful that you could if you confine a company that will foster and nourish that as well, it's a great skill to have. I mean, obviously, coming from a public speaker, I'm biased. However, I think it's a great skill. Okay,
well, and just a quick side note on that, I will tell you about seven years ago, when I started the work I'm doing now as a an advocate for inclusive work places on the leadership coach. I'm an author. I'm a speaker. Seven years ago, I used to work in Tech and I hated public speaking. And I got the advice when I was starting my own business of like, Hey, if you want to attract some clients and some business for your coaching business, you need to get out there and speak and so people can hear about you're experiencing the way you approach problems And like no, not doing that, uh, I decided, Oh, yes, I have to do that. So I I am, like, a success case of If you hate public speaking and don't think you're very good at it, you can learn it because I I now love it. I do as I speak in public in number of times every month. I think I gave 40 talks last year on better allies. I I absolutely love public speaking, So if I can do it, anyone can do
it. Yea, OK, I hope that inspires some of the audience because I run across a lot of people who are scared. But I'm sure like me, you meet people who say thank you so much for that talk that really helped me. That really changed my life. And that is for many of us who speak regularly. That's like our rocket fuel to say help. Exactly. I love it. Karen. You talk about culture fit in this book, and I want to read a quote from the book because I absolutely adore how you frame this. And I want us to dive in. You say, overtime culture fit became code for something else. Passing the friendship test, the whole quote unquote grab a beer scenario prompted decision makers to begin thinking quote unquote culture fit as relating to likability, personnel similarities and chemistry with the interviewer. It gave them license to hire people they wanted to spend time with and pass over people who might have been ideal for the job but clashed with their leadership styles. Excuse me. Let me drop the mic right there. Whoa. Huh? We've heard so much about culture fit, and I really love how you frame it. I love for you to talk to us a little bit more about so should we not be looking for culture victory? Be looking for something else. What do you say?
Yes, and I'll say, I feel like sometimes I'm in a bubble here in Silicon Valley and like no one's looking for culture fit anymore because it's like taboo. But this concept is alive and well. I was talking. I have a son in college. He's a senior right now. His roommate was interviewing with Cem consulting firms on the East Coast, and was telling me I was talking to his room and it's roommate said, Oh, yeah, I just was in Boston because they wanted to have a meet and greet with some of the partners and I think it was like the layover test. I'm like, What's the layover test? He's like, Oh, you know, would you? If you got stranded in an airport for, like a four hour layover, would you wanna hang out with the person? And I said, Oh, okay, that's another example of culture fit that is biased, like clear in Central Um, So anyway, this thing, this concept is alive and well. Oh, totally. And, um, and instead and their best practices that I've curated in the book here, here, two examples. Instead, when someone says, Hey, I don't know if they'd be a culture fit, we'll ask the reverse question. Ask. Well, how would they be a culture ad?
Oh, I love how would they
add to our culture? Get people to think differently about it? So I think that's a best practice. Another thing, of course, to combat the bias that is associate with this layover test this culture fit. Would you grab a beer with them? Another way is to make sure again, back to the structured interviews that you have a clear idea of how you're evaluating candidates. And if someone at the 11th hour is your talking and debriefing on the candidate, someone says, and I don't think they really would fit with our culture, that's when you go back to the basics like, No, we already decided This is how we are evaluating people, whether we want to get a beer with them or not is not on the list. So that's off the table. You
know, I love that I remember, you know, and culture fit as you said, is alive and well. I remember it very clearly, not even 10 years ago in the Bay Area, and it was often used in hiring. Uh, well, it could be used in a number of ways, but it was often used in ageism thing. Oh, there they seem. Well, I mean, I remember we had a candidate who was a little bit older at that point in their fifties, and most of the team was in their late twenties and thirties. And they thought they said, Oh, I don't think it's a good culture fit. And I remember thinking, Why? Because you know they have white hair. Is that why? Ah, so, yeah, I absolutely love that. And the promise that you give about those biased comments and how to look out for them in the book are absolutely incredible. One other thing I want to bring up. Um, you know, candidates are so often focused on having skills and checking the boxes for the job they want. So there's two parts to this. We'll start. Let's start with the first part you talk about in job descriptions. And this, for me, was perhaps one of the most revelatory parts of the book is how to write Ah, proper job description. We know from the research that you cite that, um, women are less likely to apply to a job unless they have 100% of the qualifications. And I believe for men, it's about 60% of the qualifications on a job description will prompt them to apply. So can you talk a little bit about best practices around job descriptions?
Yes, and I'll embarrass myself a little bit. Maybe some of your listeners are like me in that when I look back at the job descriptions I had to write, and I know I took the last one I wrote, copied it and then added to it because the last one is good enough to start adding to it. And I bet that every single one of those job descriptions had the phrase bachelors degree or higher. Just that phrase. I thought that that would attract a certain caliber of talent. That's the talent we wanted. So I always made sure that my job descriptions had that. But as we think about now and hindsight's 2020 as we think about attracting people from diverse backgrounds, whether they are women or men or non binary, not you don't. You'll need a college degree for so many of our jobs and they're examples, and I list these in the book on I Don't Know Them off the top of my Head, but I believe it's like IBM and Google and a few other companies will be. Our companies no longer require college degrees in the job application process. So unless like, if you're if you're looking for someone to be a professor, of course you're gonna want some degree certification tiu their credibility. But unless you really need it, cut it out other things to cut out anything that's preferred because you have to ask yourself, Well, preferred. So someone came. Let's say we say something like international experience preferred. Well, someone came and applied and had everything else you're looking for except that preferred international experience. If you're going to give them the offer, then you should even have it on there because there might be someone who's out there who would be a great candidate who won't not will not apply because they don't have that experience and they're like, uh, I'm not good enough. I'm not what they're looking for. I won't apply so preferred things. Get rid of all of those and for everything else that's left. Ask yourself if the ideal candidate came along without that quite that experience, would we still hire them? And again, hold yourself accountable. If the answer's yes, pull it out. If you're saying something like 4 to 6 years of Java experience required and someone came along with just two years of job experience and that be good enough, then don't have the 4 to 6. Maybe don't even have Java experience if you think they can learn it on the job. Um, so there's a Those are a few tips from the book of just very practical things that anyone can start. Just look, look there. Look at some job opening that you have on your team or that you are hiring for and apply those those principles and see if you can't simplify your job description.
I absolutely love that, and it's so forward thinking you've probably seen a lot of the, um, news out about Tesla and some of the hiring practices they're trying to, um, hi, near there were like, We just want good people. We want people that we can train. We want people that are go getters, and I think some of my best jobs when I was in the full time world were at companies where they really wanted. Ah, candidate who was enthusiastic about the work was willing to learn who wanted to be there, and they were willing to do the training. Yes, I mean, that's pretty cool. So what I would love to end on is this question you ask in the book about inclusion interview questions. So we're talking in HR about you know, it is a best practice for us to be inclusive in hiring, but I love how you then also want to make sure that candidates and new hires coming into the company do have a focus on being inclusive. And so I know one of the questions you ask is, How have you contributed to an inclusive workplace, culture or community? And I know you have a few more. But can you talk more about that? Because I feel like that's how we are finally going to see some big shifts is if our employees air fully bought in?
Yes, and it's an open ended question in terms of Tell me how you've done this or they're a couple others that are also open ended. But behavior Leonard few type of thing. Tell me a time that you had to. You were supportive of diversity, inclusion. What did that look like? And I think it's important to hear from the candidates that you are hiring, that they think this is important. I think it would be very telling if someone comes along. It's not important. We all are just here to work. That might not be the right person. If you are trying to call to cultivate a more inclusive environment, right and there are people out there, I get it. But if you were trying to chip your culture and to be more inclusive and to be more diverse, those aren't the people you want to have their. So why not scream for those types of attitudes in the interview process? I also think that by asking a question or two along those lines, you send a powerful signal to candidates that this is important to your company. And if they get the offer and they join, it's going to be an expectation that they will be supportive of it as well. I
absolutely love that. Be the change you seek, right? Yes, yes, we have to do it, Karen this has been incredible. Last thing. Do you have anything else that you want to make sure we share with the audience on this topic
we've covered so much? I think that you have done. I want to thank you. You have done a great job reading my book and asking some super insightful questions. And so thank you for that. No, I don't think I have anything else to say at this time. And
Karen, how can people find you?
Yes, so better. Allies dot com has information about the book. How to Buy It. Other resource is such as 50 ways you might have more privileged than your Your coworkers Resource is Cem, a book club discussion guide. Various Resource is there, as well as a newsletter that you can sign up for. That I send out every Friday called five Ally actions. Just a kind of Sprinkle some new ideas and additional ideas of how to be allies in the workplace. I'm kind of throughout your work week on love, the newsletter. Oh, thank you. I have. It's great. I enjoy writing it and getting it out to people every week. Thank you,
Karen. Thank you. So much for being on the show. This has been great. If you are in HR, pick up Karen's books. Uh, follow her. I follow her on Lincoln, get the newsletter up because there is some really great information here. And if you are a candidate looking for work, right, remember that there are companies that are very committed to hiring inclusive, uh, making inclusive hires that are not just a token hire, as you say in the book. And I just want to make this point because we didn't talk about it. This is about finding the best fit for the job, not just hiring your friends who look like you or who have the same education or background as you. So, uh, that's my final note on this, Karen, Thank you again for being with us,
Laura. Thank you. I had a ball.
Yea, I want to thank you for joining me. And remember to subscribe to your favorite app so you can stay up to date and I would love your review. If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and comment on apple podcasts. You can also keep in touch with me online. You can find me on Lincoln. And I'm also on instagram at force of bad ass story. All that information will be available in the show notes until next time. Stay brave.